[Music]
I
welcome to Sputnik orbiting the world
with me George Galloway and me Joseph
Hyatt standing in for gadri 30 years ago
Patrick McGee of the IRA came within an
inch of assassinating the then British
prime minister Margaret Thatcher in the
Grand Hotel in Brighton many others were
killed and named many for Life Irish
Republican groups had already
assassinated members of the Royal Family
and Mrs fer Circle and would go on to
kill more her successor John Major and
his cabinet would later have to hide
under their own cabinet table in 10
Downing Street as Ira Rockets came
through the window it was the height of
the Ira's military threat to British
rule in the north of Ireland having more
effect than any number of killings there
it may have been the moment behind all
the necessary Bluster when the British
decided there was no military solution
to their long war with Ireland our first
guest Joshua LaVine is a man who knows a
lot about war and how the British have
lived through so many of them he's the
author of more books on Britain and
conflict than I have time to tell you
about he has also interviewed the
aforementioned Patrick McGee and I'm
glad to say he joins us now on board the
Sputnik Joshua first of all tell us what
Patrick McGee is like murderous criminal
bloodthirsty not at all it was it was
very very polite very thoughtful quite
inscrutable didn't give much away and
probably was quite nervous of me because
a stranger coming along and asking him
some very personal questions is is is is
going to unsettle someone but I found
him very thoughtful and obviously racked
with a with a with a kind of um guilt
he's on the horns of this moral dilemma
he he talks about the fact that he uh
did the right thing he think he was
engaged in a war and he believed he did
the right thing in planting that bomb
but on at the same time he's got very
friendly with the daughter anony Barry
who was one of the victims MP who was
killed in the killed and and he regrets
hugely the fact that he killed this
woman who's become a close friend her
father and I think a lot of his life is
an attempt to square that Circle try to
make sense how can you you know think
you did the right thing but at the same
time regret that you killed certainly
one person and probably more it's very
difficult and I think with his um like
so many of the Republicans with his with
his Catholic background there is is even
though he's hasn't been a Catholic for
many years there is still this sense
that a reckoning is coming uh and I
think a lot of his life is involved with
trying to make sense of what he did and
trying to to to justify it to himself
and and and and and make give his life
meaning and many think he he was some
kind of electronics wizard a mastermind
but in fact he just happened to be the
Ira's main man uh on the mainland
Mainland at the time as it's described
at the time he he was brought up
actually most of his young life was
spent in England in East Anglia so he
had a a good English accent so he was
used as as as their man on the on the
mainland and he had a basic knowledge of
circuitry so that that's what qualified
him to to to to plant this extraordinary
um bomb and he planted it under the bath
uh in the Very Room that he knew that
one month later exactly the Prime
Minister would be sleeping in if the
Prime Minister had been brushing her
teeth when the bomb went off uh as she
could well have been what would have
been the main results in your view well
it's interesting I mean it's certainly
arguable that that we wouldn't have had
a peace process at the time we did
because if the Prime Minister had been
killed it would have been very very
difficult for the Britain to to start
negotiating with Shin Fain at any time
in the in the in in in in the near
future I mean really very difficult as
it was if you if you're thinking in
terms of Peace it probably I mean it's
you know a strange thing to say but the
result was was in in terms of damage
done it did accelerate the peace process
because what it did if you if you read
lost lives which is the almost the Bible
of the the troubles it goes through all
the deaths of the troubles one by one
and you start to see there's almost a
pattern it become it's very tip fortat a
Catholic killed a Protestant killed a
policeman killed and and and and you
know it's why the the British army have
admitted it was it it became a good
training ground for soldiers because it
was a sort of predictable uh uh conflict
and what this did was to take it
completely out of that predictability
completely out of the game as some
people were calling it as it stood and
Alan Clark is very interesting in his
Diaries Alan Clark says that this act
has a smell of the Tet Offensive about
it now he clearly doesn't mean in terms
of of of skill no but T was a military
failure but a political success
precisely it it was the the effect that
it had on the American public it made
them realize that the war you know
couldn't be won it had that same s of
effect of the T offensive in that the
public and and and people realized they
weren't going away they were going to be
a very difficult unit to break down and
so in a way I mean it's absolutely
terrible that people had to die for this
to happen but it was one of those events
that probably in retrospect did bring
the peace process a little bit closer I
mean journalist David Hughes described
this as the most audacious attack on a
British government since the Gunpowder
Plot I mean is that correct I think it
is I mean it's extraordinary AUD ious
and and you know as you were saying I
mean it was it was it was brilliantly
carried out I mean it
was it was effective and and and and it
had such a strong effect on on on
attitudes in in in Britain and on
attitudes in in the government and and
you see I mean Alan Clark was was
impressed by it I mean to him it was a
um it was a master stroke and uh it it
it certainly jerked the troubles out of
the sort of predictability that that
they become on the other hand you know
one has to look at what it was it was
also the coldblooded killing of of
people and these were not you know it
wasn't thata who was killed it wasn't
Mrs Thatcher it wasn't it it was these
were actually were people much lower
down the ranks and members of of the
families of of Tes people who had no
actual input in government policy
whatsoever and that's a question I asked
Patrick mcke I said you know did does it
bother you that the people you killed
weren't the people you were really going
for and he said well that's that's how
War Works he said our real worry was
that we might kill a chambermaid or so
so I timed it so that you know it was
unlikely that you know I effectively the
collateral damage would be would be less
but it's it's on the one hand it was
this master stroke on the one hand it it
did bring we can say in Retros it
probably brought peace closer on the
other hand it was a cold blooded murder
indeed and uh and Norman tbot Lord tet's
wife is uh disabled to this day push
around in a in a wheelchair and he's
very bitter doesn't
accept uh any kind of he can't forgive
he said Patrick McGee because Patrick
McGee has never
repented now talking of audacity we know
that Patrick m McGee planted that bomb
we don't know who fired the Rockets
through the cabinet window uh arguably
that was even more audacious it was real
life wasn't done a month before M and
the British cabinet I remember it very
well I was a member of parliament at the
time the British cabinet were cowering
under the cabinet table terms of uh an
audacious military strike by a
paramilitary outfit that's a pretty high
threshold too isn't it absolutely no I
mean so audacious to you know to park
this van outside park the van at the
back entrance to Downing Street and
fired at least two rockets through the
exact window where the cabinet was
meeting I mean I think think the same
applies I mean in a way had they killed
the entire cabinet peace would have been
much further off I mean you that's the
thing about terrorism isn't it that it
actually certainly in the short term
maybe even the medium term achieves the
opposite of its intention uh you you
could not conceive of a British cabinet
being wiped out and its successor
cabinet treating with the people who had
just killed the previous cabinet and
therefore the war intensifies and it's
one of the many contradictions of of
Northern Ireland you know the the fact
was this it has brought piece closer and
it could so easily have pushed it
further away and and there's so many
contradictions when you know when you
start to to to to to look closely at at
uh for example the the strategy that
that that Shin feain the political the
armorite in one hand and the The Ballot
Box in the other which this was Danny
Morrison 19 1981 I think it was and you
on the one hand you know you had the IRA
very much going along with this but but
the more successful The Ballot Box was
the more it actually stifled the
military uh campaign because if if they
were successful uh in with The Ballot
Box they didn't want to jeopardize that
but by by killing too many people or by
causing outrages and on the other hand
if they lost popularity at The Ballot
Box
ascribed that to the fact that they were
being too outrageous with the armal lies
the political leadership of shen feain
is riding very high indeed they are the
biggest party in Ireland as a uh Martin
mcginness who some say he denies uh was
the uh Chief of Staff of the IRA as the
Deputy Prime Minister famously chuckled
with Reverend Dean Paisley and now sits
in a in a in a a duo with with Peter
Robinson a most unlikely uh outcome um
the doyle is uh facing its only real
opposition uh the government in the
Republic is facing its only real
opposition in Shin Fain it's perfectly
possible that uh Shen feain will be the
next government in the Republic and the
demography in the north is changing fast
it's now
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5248 the Str has worked hasn't it it's
very interesting you say that the
demographics are changing very much and
but there's always been an assumption
that when there's a majority of
Catholics in the north they will vote to
unite and it doesn't necessarily follow
because as I mean the problem really you
know if you go back 30 40 years there
was real unfairness in north of Island I
mean it was the Protestants had the
upper hand they didn't live well
necessarily but you know they were
second class citizens compared to the
the Catholics who are fourth class
citizens but things are much fairer now
things are much more equal you know jobs
are open to to they don't the Catholics
don't have the necessarily the
complaints that they once had and once
that's the case then it's not
necessarily the vote necessarily isn't
going to run along ethnic lines the way
it once would I think you're going to
find that that that actually Catholics
many many more Catholics are going to
vote with the status quo because they're
doing all right jack than necessarily
voting to become part of the South the
vote will be much more an economic vote
on you know whether they want to be with
the North or with the south on who's
doing better it's a very very
interesting subject Joshua LaVine author
of beauty and atrocity and many really
great books and I realize I've read a
lot of your books and so should everyone
else coming up after the break pullets
are Prize winner you and M CasCal of the
Guardian newspaper a man with an
important part in the hottest film
property of the year year released just
yesterday citizen 4 by Laura pus on
Edward Snowden don't miss
[Music]
it welcome back to Sputnik my next guest
has been a friend of mine for nearly 30
years neither of us knew back then that
he would find a central role in one of
the most dramatic stories in world
journalistic history a story by the way
which would see him win the coveted
bullets are prize in May of 2013 y mcco
was having a quiet day in the office in
New York when his editor told him to
collect his toothbrush and fly to Hong
Kong to debrief an alleged whistle broer
from the United States Security Services
who might or probably might not have an
interesting tale to tell that man was
Edward Snowden the rest as they say is
history a history now immortalized in
film thanks to Laura pess whose movie
Citizen 4 was released on the world
yesterday you and mascal joins us now
but first let's have a look at the
trailer for the
film
Laura at this stage I can offer nothing
more than my
word I am a senior government employee
in the intelligence Community I hope you
understand that contacting you is
extremely high
risk for now know that every border you
cross every purchase you make every call
you dial every cell phone tower you pass
friend you keep site you visit and
subject line you type is in the hands of
a system whose reach is unlimited but
whose safeguards are
not in the end if you publish The Source
material I will likely be immediately
implicated I ask only that you ensure
this information makes it home to the
American public thank you and be careful
citizen
4 so I don't know when thing about you
okay um I work for uh so I don't your
name oh sorry I uh my name is Edward
Snowden I go by
Ed um Edward Joseph snowden's the full
[Music]
name you and when we first met uh we
were both uh Local Heroes you're now an
international figure featuring in three
plays and soon to be three films but
let's start with the one that was
released yesterday which has become the
hottest film property in the world tell
us about it and when we were in Hong
Kong uh interviewing Edward Snowden we
interviewed him over something like you
know six to eight days uh and Laura
filmed entire thing including the actual
uh meeting the first meeting the first
meeting as soon as I I wasn't there for
the initial meeting I was there the
second day but I'm told that on the
first day she just went into the room
with Snowden and straight away just set
up her camera and when I went in the
second day the camera was set up and it
was just rolling all the time I think
she's got about 20 hours worth of
footage and uh so the the very
similitude is is clearly there and
that's I think what makes the film so
Sensational because it's like a flower
uh opening up isn't it yeah I I read one
um critic saying some of the scenes must
have been staged it was complete
nonsense none of her she was filming and
we just forgot about her as you normally
do in those situations and uh we were
engaged in questioning Snowden and the
camera cease to exist and how have the
authorities taken to the whole thing
being immortalized uh in what will
undoubtedly be a multiple award-winning
movie yeah I'm pretty sure it's going to
win an Oscar she always won an Oscar for
her Iraq documentary my country my
country and this is way better um so I
think she's going to get an Oscar I
haven't heard anything from the
authorities yet but this is going to do
all the articles that have been written
uh all those stories won't have the
impact that this documentary has because
people will see Snowden it humanizes
them it shows them his geeky side it
shows them uh as very moral it shows
them a sense of humor it shows he's
paranoid it shows his nervousness and
excitement as a moment close and that's
going to change the perception of
Snowden I you have to change public
opinion in America and I think that's uh
that this documentary will go a long way
towards doing that the film doesn't show
the United Kingdom in a good light uh
the British response has been close to
zero partly because only the guardian
really took the story up it never became
part of the popular culture uh although
Snowden was elected as
disced as theor ofg University but
beyond if you like the politicized class
nobody really knows who Snowden is
probably think it's Lord Snowden when
you're uh when you're uh talking about
him why do you think that is that
Snowden revealed that Britain was spying
on an industrial scale in fact A J more
than industrial uh was spying on us all
spying on the world and without legal
authority to do so and yet the political
class hasn't done that about it it's a
really good question and I'll say from
the outset I don't know the answer but
in citizen 4 Snowden says repeatedly
that gchq is worse much more intrusive
than the NSA now why is it not uh been
an outcry in Britain why the political
classes not engaged it may be as you say
the rest of the media don't like the
guardian because of phone hacking or
things were arrogant and smug um it
could be that you know for four
centuries been a little political
upheaval in Britain uh people are
comfortable with State security uh
because of the IRA and intelligence role
in that now the role of the intelligence
agencies in dealing with islamist
terrorism um it maybe the public think
uh they're quite happy with the idea of
uh security uh and prepared to sacrifice
privy
um it's not it may be just a cultural
thing we've been brought up in James
Bond and we view the intelligent
services in a benign way well they're
more Austin Powers than uh James Bond in
my experience now Snowden uh is in
Moscow uh we learn he's now joined by
his partner who many thought had fled
the coup uh how is he fairing uh how
isolated do you think he feels what are
his plans I saw him in U Moscow um a
couple of months ago and um it's in six
and 4 reveals that his girlfriend uh
Lindsay has gone to join him I think she
went and joined him in July before I
went to see him in Moscow i' been told
oh he's depressed he's you know fed up
uh and um I think former
NSA director claimed he would end up
like fil and all the others you know
alcoholic depressed but he was none of
these things um in fact he doesn't drink
so he's not going to end up as an
alcohol um he lived a life
in uh America and Hawaii and Japan and
other places who live different from you
and me He Lives a he's part of that
internet generation he lives online he
sits up from 10: at night till 3:00 4 in
the morning communicating with other
people online that's what he's doing in
uh Moscow so his life isn't
fundamentally different from what it was
uh in uh the US he'd rather be in
Western Europe he'd rather be back in
America but he's not going back to face
charges he doesn't think he's done
anything wrong is there any possibility
of him coming in from the C to use the
spy uh jargon would the United States
ever agree I can't see it only if it was
an embarrassment to America having uh
Snowden and Russia uh they think well
okay may be better to do a deal and let
them go to Switzerland or Norway um but
at present I don't sense any
embarrassment and they to some extent it
might be useful to them having him
sitting in Russia and they can uh claim
that you know here he is he's a quote
traitor look at him he's sitting in
Russia obviously it's is stunning that
you did capture this and I mean hats off
to you but can I ask did you face any
backlash in your life consequently of
such a high-profile case it's surprising
and
before uh in the immediate aftermath of
Hong Kong I went back to New York uh and
I was the expectation was I might end up
in front of a grand jury wow so Guardian
lawyers briefed me on how to respond uh
but nothing happened for about 6 months
every time I back into the UK i' would
be stopped at passport control but
normally just for about s 20 minutes uh
question well you say your passports
been uh reported uh lost or stolen well
the only person that would have done
that was me and I didn't so I must have
been on somebody's list I put in a l
eventually get fed up with it because it
was awkward I was going with family and
I'd be held back and they would had no
idea what was happening to me um So
eventually I lodged an official
Complaint and it stopped why has this uh
captured the imagination of filmmakers
and playwrights I I'm forever meeting
people who say that they've been
watching someone playing you on a stage
yeah uh why do you think it's captured
the imagination of creative people in
this way this a lot of reasons maybe
spies are is always a sexy subject it's
an exotic location Hong Kong it's this
sort of sense of uh the moral man
standing up to the authoritarian State
um so I think it's a combin combination
of these things now there uh thanks to
his revelation we we know as I said the
central role that gchq is playing we
know that the Americans were uh
listening into to the telephone of the
chancellor of uh Germany one of their
closest allies the most important
country in Europe and so on is it all
still going on um yeah I don't think
anything's fundamentally changed um if
anything uh I I would have thought
intelligent Services would think look
we've got a problem of public trust
we're going to have to make Con some
concessions even if they're just minor
to try and win back public confidence
but I mean there isn't pressure in the
UK there is pressure in America there is
pressure in Brazil there is pressure in
Germany and uh Indonesia and elsewhere
around the world but not um so there's
the basically the intelligent services
in Britain and in America rather than
giving concessions are actually taking
more Powers taking more Powers Yeah
there's no real political over oversight
uh there's no real judicial oversight uh
one of the Committees the House of
Commons um home Affairs committee with
Keith spaz there's an almost comical
exchange the were taking evidence from
the interceptions commissioner who's
supposed
to uh be the Ombudsman for the gchq and
they said to him um you've seen all
these stories in the guardian are you
concerned about what's happening at GC
gchq and it was like the old boys
Network the old boys club he goes down
to gchq and says uh I've seen these
stories in the guardian is there
anything to be concerned about and they
say no and that's the extent move
nothing to see
here this is parliamentary oversight
British style well um I'm going to make
sure I see every play and every movie in
which you feature you and mcal thanks
very much indeed for joining us on the
[Music]
Sputnik and now it's turn to tell us
what you think through the portals of
social media what's rattling Joseph well
30 years on obviously from the Brighton
Hotel bombing we ask what is the turning
point of the troubles and has have
lessons been learned um quite sensitive
and heated replies on that one but
Michael O says if they had got their
target how different would Britton be
and of course on citizen 4 uh we asked
is Edward Snowden a hero well T says
Snowden Manning Assange are ever truth
martys and beacons of hope that's all
we've got time for for today which alas
means that's the end of the show tweet
us your views on Twitter it's rtor
Sputnik and on Facebook Sputnik on
Russia today but from me Joseph height
it's goodbye once again and from me
George Gallow it's been marvelous